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HorvatMThe award overview document
So, where is it? I'd also like to see the judges' ballots. My argument is that since they are basically the same as reviews (but more important!), and reviews are publicly available, the ballots should be too. Unless the judgement was unfair, there should be no problem with it.		2011-02-284:24 PM
BrandonRe:The award overview document
The ballots to any GUI Award, have never been released, and last year's overview document was just a summary of all the entries, I haven't made one for this year (yet). The ballots aren't released to protect the judges, for example, if I feel that your GUI isn't really a GUI, it's a TUI, and rate it poorly, you might think less of me/start drama. However I have all the ballots recorded and if you truly believe that GUI Awards are rigged, I can e-mail you the ballots.		2011-02-285:45 PM
DickRe:The award overview document
you should just show all the ballots		2011-03-133:46 PM
pharoahRe:The award overview document
Not that I've voted in the GUI awards in recent memory (although I meant to, I didn't get a look at all the GUIs in time), but I think there are good reasons for not releasing the totals. First off, people want to be anonymous when they vote, so they can be honest without worrying that someone else will be hurt by their choices. Second, we don't want to discourage someone by showing them that they're in the absolute last place, since we want everyone to know they've got a shot to win GUI awards.		2011-03-133:58 PM
JasonRe:The award overview document
It's to improve on your GUI, it's called tough love. If you think you'll get hurt by your results, don't read them, just like late night television.		2011-03-138:40 PM
DickRe:The award overview document
This forum could use some truthfulness. It gets boring here when you post stuff and get no response.		2011-03-138:55 PM
BrandonRe:The award overview document
Well if you want the ballots, let me know and I'll e-mail them to you.		2011-03-139:34 PM
JasonRe:The award overview document
send it to me: jasonwoodland at hotmail dot com
oh and add me on facey ;) 		2011-03-1311:29 PM
BrandonRe:The award overview document
Why do you want them? You didn't enter anything? Why is it any of your business who voted for what? If someone entered a GUI and wants the results, I have no issue with sending them. However, Pharoah is right, therefore I won't publish the results. I run GUI Awards, and make the decisions, if you don't agree, start your own awards.		2011-03-142:29 PM
HorvatMRe:The award overview document
Wait. Why is this a community site if you aren't willing to accept any input? Calm down, nobody's trying to take your crown off you.		2011-03-142:42 PM
BrandonRe:The award overview document
I am just saying that I agree with the points Pharoah made. The reason that I'm a little defensive is because the only reason that you'd want the ballots is that you are accusing me of rigging the results and cheating, not exactly what everyone wants to be accused of.		2011-03-144:19 PM
ToddRe:The award overview document
How does all of this brawling start? The original GUI sites never sparked arguments and many of them had awards and honor systems themselves. Brandon's just trying to keep the spirit alive and help reward people for their hard work. I say if you want to start your own, feel free to do so. Make it the way you want - derivatives are encouraged. I think Brandon is fair and wouldn't rig a GUI awards judging. Plus I've been in competitions quite often. They NEVER show the ballots to contestants.		2011-03-144:51 PM
HorvatMRe:The award overview document
The original GUI sites never sparked arguments and many of them had awards and honor systems themselves.

I'm not a veteran but rumor has it that Brandon wasn't always the boss.

I think Brandon is fair and wouldn't rig a GUI awards judging.

Well, you see, I, and maybe others, find it odd that Brandon won the 2010 awards considering how much effort trolly put into Q-Step 3 and the speed at which he did it. During the development of Q-Step 3, I received several development versions and exchanged opinions and ideas with trolly, and he took my input into consideration all the time. (Note: this does not necessarily mean he followed it.) When you exchange opinions with Brandon, you only get excuses why something is like this and not like that, and that he is the boss (God forbid he ever be wrong!) and bla bla bla. I think trolly is clearly the more coöperative person here and therefore the right person to be rewarded. Of course I am not saying that just because I inherently don't want to see Brandon win. But it doesn't seem well explained.

Plus I've been in competitions quite often. They NEVER show the ballots to contestants.

See my argument that compares ballots to reviews. I'm pretty sure I'd stop bitching if we got a proper, objective, detailed overview document that "should be released in the week following the awards" and is "sitting on a hard drive".		2011-03-146:45 PM
pharoahRe:The award overview document
At the risk of annoying pretty much everybody here, I think I'll go ahead and put forth a few observations First off, it isn't true that there weren't arguments in the "old days" (at jacobpalm.dk and the old GUI blog, which is still up somewhere). I seem to remember a few weird personality clashes and the like, and it certainly didn't help things that we were a bunch of middle school students (middle school students are the worst kind of pelple). At any rate, I don't remember any GUI contests from those days. Although there were a lot of reviews, I think Brandon is the one who pretty much started the GUI awards and kept them going. Back in the day, you'd just post your GUI and hope to get a bunch of comments. Brandon has, in fact, put quite a bit of work into keeping the QB GUI community going. Although not all of his attempts were successful (lime green background), and he wasn't always humble about his successes, the blog has been working year round, and we do have a contest, although lazy asshats like me don't bother to vote in it. These are things for which Brandon deserves recognition, because I believe this blog is the reason that the GUI community didn't slowly disintegrate after Jacob Palm took his site down. At the same time, Brandon might benefit from being a bit more open about the reasons behind his decisions. Everyone who is a member of the blog stays here voluntarily, so we can safely assume that we're interested in building up the community and offering only criticisms that we think are constructive. Sometimes I see that Brandon gets more upset about a comment than the comment deserves, or closes down a discussion by asserting his authority as webmaster, which is both alienating and counterproductive. Sometimes, I think that there are legitimate reasons for Brandon's refusal to implement some change, and that people would be a lot happier if he'd reveal them. Remember that administering a site such as this one can take quite a bit of time, and implementing new features or writing content can be a real pain in the ass. (This, incidentally, is why I never uploaded Qbrowse .7 even though I finished it about a year ago.) Other times, I feel that the decisions might be made too hastily, and may be based on Brandon's personal preferences entirely, without much consideration of their impact. I understand the desire to control one's own website, but I am of the opinion that everyone here would be happier if we could make more compromises, grow our blog and community, and have fewer conflicts. Remember that, if a change doesn't work, we can reverse it later on. On the specific subject of the GUI awards voting, I'd support the release of the results if the people who voted agree to have them released. Maybe we could start a thread for people who voted, and those who are willing to have their votes posted could give their consent. I think this would be the fairest and most respectful way of diffusing what appears to me to be an overly contentious issue. For those of you who may not have been around, Brandon has often not won his own GUI contest, although he usually placed (partly because he's an experienced and somewhat prolific GUI developer). Although I could tell you a few stories of times when Brandon has been a bit immature, I've never known him to lie to anyone or cheat them out of anything, and I don't believe that he's rigged this contest. My guess is that the numbers turned out a bit weird since there is such a small number of people voting. If you're worried about Trolly being treated unfairly, I think your efforts are misplaced, since Trolly isn't participating in this thread and, as far as I know, doesn't seem to care all that much about his placing in GUI awards. He's a hobbyist who writes excellent GUIs for fun, and he'll continue to do so, irrespective of his placing in a little online contest. This doesn't mean that the contest shouldn't be fair, but it does mean that you should represent your own interests, and not seek to represent others when they haven't asked you to. I'd rather see this thread closed, but I can tell that such an action would only make things worse. What everyone needs to do now is calm the hell down, make a damn QML page already, and stop with the baseless accusations. Remember that this is a forum about programming and not a youtube comment thread. Also, Horvat, this isn't The New Yorker. Please only use English diacritics when writing English. :P Okay, now I'm done! Edit: I meant to have paragraphs, I swear!		2011-03-148:34 PM
ToddRe:The award overview document
I think pharoah makes some valid points. I meant to say that other QB sites had honor systems like Pete's QB Site and a couple older ones (QBasic.tk I think?). I'm really not sure what started this whole debate in the first place. A contest is a contest, not a review site. If it satisfies anyone, I can review your GUIs on my site. As far as I remember, Brandon didn't have a formal ballot system for this except to simply reply to him with which GUIs you'd vote for in which categories (e.g. creativeness, UI design, ease of use, etc.). This can be biased or unbiased depending on the judge. Besides, Brandon said he'd e-mail anyone who wants to see the ballots. So everyone should be good now, right?		2011-03-149:45 PM
tacodrake95Re:The award overview document
BTW todd, what is your website url?		2011-03-1410:05 PM
pharoahRe:The award overview document
Wow, things have changed. Back in the day, every GUI coder would've known that Todd's site is
http://qbasicgui.datacomponents.net/ :) (I think I've read every review!)		2011-03-1410:39 PM
BrandonRe:The award overview document
I've read every review twice :P Oh that reminds me, Todd, you need some new GUI reviews.		2011-03-1410:54 PM
pharoahRe:The award overview document
I was being figurative. I've read every review three times.		2011-03-1411:02 PM
HorvatMRe:The award overview document
make a damn QML page already

I'd make more QML pages if only QML wasn't so awkward to use. (See my criticism of QML. Never mind that Brandon has provided his input; I want yours.) And yesterday (or was it the day before?) I noticed that CURSOR indexed my QML site and downloaded each page up to 97 times! (The minimum download count being 27.) A recursion error, maybe? This could be a problem for people with bandwidth limits.

(This, incidentally, is why I never uploaded Qbrowse .7 even though I finished it about a year ago.)

Qeader 1.2 has been in the works for more than half a year and I'd hurry up and release it if I'd see more interest and development in QML.

Also, Horvat, this isn't The New Yorker. Please only use English diacritics when writing English. :P

Well, you see, I'm a fan of the heavy metal umlaut.

Edit: I meant to have paragraphs, I swear!

You didn't close your <p> tags but it renders fine in every browser I've tried.		2011-03-157:11 AM
ToddRe:The award overview document
I'll get some new reviews. I'm also in the process of bolstering the old ones. I've noticed some of them are weak or not very descriptive - some of them repetitive. I guess that's because of my grammar in 9th Grade. Hehe... ;-)		2011-03-158:16 AM
HorvatMRe:The award overview document
I guess that's because of my grammar in 9th Grade.

Age is no substitute for knowledge.		2011-03-1510:00 AM
pharoahRe:The award overview document
Horvat, I don't know you, but you seem to be a fellow looking for an argument. In fact, my admonishment was meant to be "tongue-in-cheek", and wasn't directed at you, since your page seems to have some actually interesting content on it. I don't want to derail this thread entirely, so I will soon post a response to your old thread of QML criticisms, since I hadn't seen it before. (I've got to go at this moment, but later). In any case, I'm sorry that my CURSOR bot has been going crazy lately. The reason is that I'm writing a new version of CURSOR, and I keep finding bugs in it that require me to rebuild the index from scratch. I think I have everything working now, though, so things should calm down. Normally, the bot will only read a page once every few days or so, but I'm forcing it to run a lot lately. The current CURSOR is barely adequate even to index our 100 or so pages, since it only takes into account raw word frequencies. The new cursor will let you search for phrases, which should be a step up, but it takes forever to crawl through pages now. 		2011-03-1510:32 AM
ToddRe:The award overview document
Age is no substitute for knowledge. With age comes wisdom.		2011-03-1510:51 AM

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