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Jasonis our work useless
im sure a lot think from time to time that these guis are taking us nowhere?  i want to know what you think if there is an actual reason we make guis, well the ones who have made guis. me personally, i think that its a personal achievement and that its something lighter than windows but will perform like it.		2010-07-062:22 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
it's only an achievement if you can use it, but so far none of the guis we've made have tools normal ppl need i.e. word processing, email, html + javascript, flash...		2010-07-062:57 PM
BrandonRe:is our work useless
It depends on what your project goals/dreams are. If you actually want people to use it everyday, you are probably wasting your time. But if you make a GUI because it gives you a sense of acomplishment or because you find it to be a fun hobby, then it's not a waste of time, a waste of time would be reading fiction books or taking facebook quizes, atleast by making a GUI you are practicing programming skills that will help you later in life.		2010-07-063:13 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
THANK YOU!!!! That's exactly what I meant		2010-07-064:14 PM
HorvatMRe:is our work useless
Our work is not  useless. but so far none of the guis we've made have tools normal ppl need i.e. word processing, email, html + javascript, flash... Theoretically, making a word processor is quite easy. The only hard part is joining and splitting lines and such. HTML, Javascript, Flash? Well, HTML and Javascript are both (excuse the word) bitches to interpret, and Flash would be just impossible because Adobe owns it. Wasn't one of the purposes for QML to be easy to implement and to be suitable for word processing apps? Think of our projects as research projects. You can make something new, improve upon it, and if you are dedicated enough to it, people may actually use it. Why do people use Linux? OK, well, it's open source, but the main thing is that Linux developers (as far as I know) welcome new users and developers to the scene. If we would have promoted, documented, and supported our GUIs like that, or even better than that, I think we would get somewhere. Otherwise the remark "developed a graphical operating environment" would look nice on the resumé. I could rant about that for an hour, but I think you know what I mean.		2010-07-074:47 AM
BrandonRe:is our work useless
QML isn't easy to implement (well relative to HTML, maybe). It's easy to parse, but hard to render.
2010-07-079:15 AM
agumaRe:is our work useless
OMG IDIOT!!! If word processors are so easy to make, then make one! The reason nobody uses QML is because HTML is BETTER!!!!!!!! you can't just come up with new standards for everything, you have to support others!!!!! 99.99999999999% of websites are HTML/Flash/Javascipt etc.; 0.000000000001% of websites are QML. See the difference? Are you telling your users that they can't see the vast majority of the internet? And for flash, you have to actually make a GUI that's GOOD so they'll make flash for your GUI!!!! THAT'S HOW IT WORKS DUH. Otherwise nobody will use your GUI cuz it doesn't support Flash! And no, you can't create "another flash"...because Flash is BETTERRRRR We can't market/promote DOS GUIs because the only people who use DOS probably either have Win3.1, or they have a specific reason to not want a GUI! Also, Linux is an ___OPERATING SYSTEM___ which has SPECIFIC BENEFITS over Windows/Mac that people use for SPECIFIC functions (i.e. servers, programs specifically for Linux...) Also, 1% of people use linux. So no, it's not a success. Actually, nobody in our school uses Linux. The general public doesn't use linux. So in that sense it's a failure. Oh, and GUIs aren't original or creative anymore. So it's not "research", it's reinventing the wheel. And if you do somehow magically come up with something innovative, you'll probably get eclipsed by Google Chrome OS. Because it's not about an innovative idea, it's about (quoting Ive, Jobs's designer): "refining and refining until nothing exists between the product and the user". There's only so much innovation you can do with 8.3 file names, QBASIC, slow processor, VGA/VESA, 16-bit, and running on top of DOS, you know. And no, a QBASIC GUI is not good on the resume, it doesn't really require a whole lot of special knowledge to make one. And don't say DOS knowledge, nobody uses DOS and therefore DOS knowledge is useless. And don't say people use DOS, because it's such a minor fraction that the people who use DOS obviously know enough about it that they don't need people with "DOS knowledge". Something like networking is good on the resume, because you learn NETWORKING!!!!   MY MESSAGE: YOU CAN'T REDO 20 YEARS OF RESEARCH BY YOURSELF YOU HAVE TO JOIN THE BANDWAGON AND USE THE TOOLS THAT HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO YOU OR ELSE YOU ARE EITHER INSANE OR OTHERWISE WRONG IN THE HEAD ___@@HOWEVER@@____ like Brandon said, if you do it as a hobby, then sure that's good! But let me make it clear that we are _NOT_ doing this to accomplish anything practical!!!!!		2010-07-072:56 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
I'd like to compare making DOS GUIs to having an extensive knowledge of ancient medicines. Ancient medicines can be an extremely interesting topic, BUT it has no practical value when you actually want to cure someone who's sick -- antibiotics are the ones that actually have a use; ancient medicines are all about religion, not science, and they don't work. Same thing with DOS GUIs -- it's cool and stuff but it doesn't REALLY give functionality -- in fact, it makes the machine slower, and adds another layer on top of your experience, which makes it so that you can't do as much.   -- Conclusion -- if you like making GUIs as a hobby, then go ahead. it can be fun and gives you a sense of accomplishment. if you try to make them practical then they won't be. i already have windows and ubuntu, why dos + your gui? plus dos doesn't even support wifi. I got wifi. nuff said. if you want an extremely rewarding, creative, teamwork-involving programming experience then I suggest game making -- it's not a mature industry yet and an indie developer still has a chance of creating a game that's original. like my friend is making a game where you roll a cube around a maze and have to line the red side up with the finish. it's really fun. and it's in Flash, so I won't be able to use it in your GUIs. so again, why would I want to use your GUIs.		2010-07-073:20 PM
JasonRe:is our work useless
You have a very strong argument Aguma & you're good at debating a topic... BUT  If there's a rule, it can be bent.  If there's a law it can be broken.  DOS is an amazing operating system, it isn't everyone's thing but it can be bent to work for anyone, just like a rule.  If it were still to be developed it wouldnt be the best thing like Mac or something but it would have more users than it does now.  For Example: there are heaps of phone companies, Apple iPhones, personally the best, but theres still heaps of people using shit little phones.  DOS *semi-died because of GUIs for DOS turning into OSes.  Like windows 95, DOS, Windows 98, DOS, Windows 2000, a Windows OS. 2010Win7VistaWin2003WinXPW2000LinuxMac May 18.9% 12.4% 1.3% 55.3% 0.4% 4.5% 6.7%  Heres a table of how many users use OSes.  Surprising hey. All I'm really saying is that DOS isnt up there with all the Graphical User Interfaced OSes because it doesnt have a... very appealing interface itself.  Then why not make a nice interface for it, Matej showed me tonnes of websites about wireless internet drivers for DOS, there are even drivers for NTFS drives, LFNs, theres heaps out there.		2010-07-075:27 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
I see your point. BUT. explain to me why instead of using DOS with tons of software to give it Windows features NOT DEVELOPED BY MICROSOFT, AND THEREFORE WILL NOT RUN AS EFFICIENTLY, we should just USE WINDOWS. I mean, all we're doing is reinventing the wheel...there's no way possible you can compete with Windows...even Windows 3.1, which is a DOS GUI and is ABANDONWARE YOU CAN DOWNLOAD ONLINE, WHICH ACCOMPLISHES THE SAME THING YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ONLY BETTER -- it has an HTML browser, great file manager, compatible with all DOS apps you can run in a little window... And don't say Win3.1 isn't free. Cuz microsoft doesn't really care if people download it. Otherwise they'd sue Vetusware or something. So why make a DOS GUI when there already is one, Win3.1. And please don't say you could make a better one. Because you can't. There is just no possible way some teenagers without any degree can beat hundreds of professional programmers working for a genius businessman. Okay?  		2010-07-076:08 PM
JasonRe:is our work useless
1 Price 2 Make a GUI better than one from nineteen ninety three		2010-07-076:12 PM
BrandonRe:is our work useless
Guys, please don't start flame wars. Anyways, Aguma, you apear to be under the impression that in order for software to be successful it has to have a large market share/number of users. And that is one way to look at it, probably the simpliest and most basic. In capitalist society it makes sense, more users means more money. However, that isn't always the best way to judge success, because GUIs and Linux aren't/isn't made to with goals that require large market share like commercial software does. Success isn't measured by the number of users ($), but by wether or not the software achieves it's goal.
For example, Mozilla Firefox, it's not the #1 most popular browser, so it would, by your standards be deemed a failure, however Firefox (at least from my point of view) has achieved it's goal in forcing other browsers to get competative and shaking up the browser world.
Again I'll say it, your time isn't wasted if your goal isn't to take over the market share of Windows or even Linux.
2010-07-077:28 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
1. price "And don't say Win3.1 isn't free" 2. 1993 stuff still works better than your stuff. hmm... I'm just a little annoyed that you guys think you're working on something novel or creative. yes brandon you're right that it doesn't have to have a market share. but at least 1 person has to use it for what its meant for for it to be successful. nobody's used a qb gui...in fact I just tested fun500 6.1 and I had to go out of DOSBox to edit a batch file, something that should be an extremely simple process that you do IN the gui.		2010-07-078:16 PM
BrandonRe:is our work useless
Again with the people needing to use it. SUCCESS ISN'T MARKET SHARE, again, again, again I say the same thing. Success is meeting your goals, my goals aren't to have a real person using my GUI, I personally want to know that I've made something that I could use. No one else has to be involved for it to be successful.		2010-07-078:25 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
you know what I'm not arguing anymore. go ahead think what you think.		2010-07-079:42 PM
ToddRe:is our work useless
Okay, if you think your work is useless, then it is. If you don't, then it isn't. I used to make GUIs but I eventually found other interests and wanted to try more object-oriented programming languages. I thought of GUIs as being a great springboard into interface design and basic programming concepts.   You can't equate your work with what the world wants or uses. Our GUIs will never go beyond hobby projects and research but they'll be great resources for future generations that get their feet wet with BASIC and computers. When I started making GUIs, I found myself looking at other people's source code for ideas and techniques behind the designs that made up some great GUIs. That's why I e-mailed the guys who made Rush, Blue, QBF OS, and several others. They replied back with source code to their brilliant GUIs. Although they didn't have dominant marketshare, I still looked up to them for their work and admired their persistence.   In my opinion, I think GUIs should be encouraged and they are not useless projects. They're only useless if someone makes you do them or forces you to make them against your own ideas. While some people disagree with me, I will say that I like variety, especially with software. I like Linux because it is highly configurable and if you don't like one program, you can find another one that serves the same if not a better purpose. Would you say those projects are useless?   The point I am trying to make is that everyone is getting too serious about their GUIs. Brandon, myself, and some of the original members (going back to JacobPalm's website) we're all just doing this for fun. We liked to share ideas, post news on what we we're doing and just show off what we'd done.   You're not working for Apple, you're not working for Microsoft, and you're not working for anyone. You're making something that you like and now you're turning it into a business venture. Believe me, when you turn your hobbies into work, you get sick of doing them. Until then, if you don't want to make GUIs, then don't. If you do, keep on coding.		2010-07-0710:06 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
The point I am trying to make is that everyone is getting too serious about their GUIs. Brandon, myself, and some of the original members (going back to JacobPalm's website) we're all just doing this for fun. We liked to share ideas, post news on what we we're doing and just show off what we'd done. I wholeheartedly agree.		2010-07-0710:09 PM
JasonRe:is our work useless
GUis like you say doesnt need HTML, Flasj, Java, that would be some over the top GUI.  If it was for business use then a simple GUI would be fine!  I still walk into shops and see people running Wfw3.11, some even DOS, like the post office or McDonalds.  They didnt need eyecandy to use a computer for their business.  I'm saying that there are many types of GUIs, but they havn't really been categorized.  Or no one has made a Office GUI as such.		2010-07-0711:13 PM
BrandonRe:is our work useless
Jason does have a point. There are cases where DOS is used in business because it's cheap and easy to support. My 486 has only been mine for about 2 years, before that it was a business machine running a QBASIC program that was hooked to serial hardware. The changes of a QB GUI actually being used are low, but Jason does make a valid point.
2010-07-0711:22 PM
HorvatMRe:is our work useless
Aguma: If you believe this community is useless, then it's amazing you're still here. As for the GUIs being useless, they will evolve, but only if their creator will want them to evolve. Is Spark better than Fun500 or Q-Step, for example? Maybe, maybe not. If you wanted to, you could make it professional quality. But it sucks that you don't. Also, please stop using all caps. There are better ways of emphasizing text on this forum. Jason & Brandon: I yet have to see a hotel (or café, or restaurant, or airline(!), or shop) that doesn't have a DOS application and sometimes a dot-matrix printer. Worldwide. Even if it's running in Windows, it still proves that DOS is not dead, as does FreeDOS. There are lots of folks writing drivers and apps for it. Notice how I didn't use the word "still". Because DOS is obsolete only if you convince yourself so.		2010-07-085:37 AM
JasonRe:is our work useless
Matej, thanks for he heads up, i didnt know many computers still had dos apps, my family is slowly making the apple switch but theres always wine & dosbox :D  		2010-07-086:48 AM
agumaRe:is our work useless
The reason I'm here is because Jason started chatting with me and I asked him "why are you still making DOS guis?" and he got kinda angry from it for some reason and we started arguing and he made this topic but then we forgot about it, except then you made that really annoying post about how were "innovating" a 20-year old industry. so I just had to reply and somehow a flame war started. okay? so maybe try to think of people's feelings so you don't start a flame war.		2010-07-082:22 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
(never mind)		2010-07-083:06 PM
JasonRe:is our work useless
If anything it's a cold war. You can't take your opinion into account, if everyone on the blog had a Poll, GUIs would win, because its a gui blog. start up a game blog if you want. PS: I got angry because you keep asking me, and then you go oin to 32-BIT, but how i dont like FB (No one start about FB PLEASE) so I decided to ask everyone else, so that it's not always 1 on 1.  "Democracy hurts when it doesn't go your way now does it?"		2010-07-083:08 PM
HorvatMRe:is our work useless
Why is it impossible to innovate a 20 year old industry? (which is actually at least 35 years old) In my opinion, the direction most (99%) GUIs (all of them, not just QB/FB ones) are going is a highway to hell. The same metaphors and theories have been used for way too long. It's time to start a revolution.		2010-07-083:26 PM
JasonRe:is our work useless
Matej, why aren't you on msn?????  What do you mean a revolution?		2010-07-083:39 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
I can tell you why we can't innovate anything. Try innovating a paper clip. It's already been tried millions of times. How do you think you'll come up with something better? And remember, you're competing against people with PhD's. In fact you haven't even made a GUI yet. All you do is rip on other people's. EDIT: You say you want a revolution 
Well, you know 
We all want to change the world 
You tell me that it's evolution 
Well, you know 
We all want to change the world 
But when you talk about destruction 
Don't you know that you can count me out 
Don't you know it's gonna be all right 
all right, all right 

You say you got a real solution 
Well, you know 
We'd all love to see the plan 
You ask me for a contribution 
Well, you know 
We're doing what we can 
But when you want money 
for people with minds that hate 
All I can tell is brother you have to wait 
Don't you know it's gonna be all right 
all right, all right 
Ah 

ah, ah, ah, ah, ah... 

You say you'll change the constitution 
Well, you know 
We all want to change your head 
You tell me it's the institution 
Well, you know 
You better free you mind instead 
But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao 
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow 
Don't you know it's gonna be all right 
all right, all right 
all right, all right, all right 
all right, all right, all right  I didn't know you were communist.		2010-07-083:42 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
Jason: democracy does hurt when they're on the other side. That's exactly what I'm trying to show you. 99.9999999% of people think you guys are crazy. Otherwise this blog would have more members. Also, why the heck won't you go 32-bit? It's actually the main mode of processors; 16-bit is for booting up to the 32-bit kernels. They actually designed it that way; go read an operating system book before you try and be retro. Also, where does it end? You could make a monitor and GUI for an Altair. You could make a computer out of levers and sticks. You could do calculations yourself and use your mind as the monitor. In fact, you could stop using computers altogether and live in a cave. "How low can you go" I'm not saying FB GUIs are useless, I'm saying you can frigging make a shell for Windows instead of DOS. It gives you higher limits and more creativity and more room to @@@@@INNOVATE@@@@@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!		2010-07-083:56 PM
JasonRe:is our work useless
There are heaps of types of paper clips, theres a new one and you push the paper into it and that makes it grip tighter :P		2010-07-084:02 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
no they found out that it's not as good as the original. innovation is only good if it's better than the original :P i read it in scientific american about a year ago btw		2010-07-084:06 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
you know what, I can't win this debate, because your heads are too thick to accept the fact that I'm right. you are the minority, I am representing the majority. people do use DOS occasionally, but your table even shows that the majority don't use DOS.		2010-07-084:08 PM
JasonRe:is our work useless
Also, why the heck won't you go 32-bit? It's actually the main mode of processors; 16-bit is for booting up to the 32-bit kernels. They actually designed it that way; go read an operating system book before you try and be retro. Also, where does it end? You could make a monitor and GUI for an Altair. You could make a computer out of levers and sticks. You could do calculations yourself and use your mind as the monitor. In fact, you could stop using computers altogether and live in a cave. "How low can you go" Do NOT question the way I work, 32-bit supports 16-bit and I have heaps of 16-bit computers, I dont want to only test it on one computer, if you think that we're all crazy then talk to game makers, you dont want brandon to change the URL to TheGameBlog.Com? 1 it would sound gay 2 its 1 more character and i cbf 3 brandon is the admin and hes making a gui.  are you just practicing your debating skills now?		2010-07-084:12 PM
BrandonRe:is our work useless
Aguma, I don't think either one of you is wrong. I do however think that you guys can't understand each other.
So I'm going to end this thread here. To summarize, A DOS GUI isn't going to change the world. It can be a fun hobby and if you are making it for fun then it has purpose.
Now any more arguing and I'll have to come up with a system of punishment.		2010-07-084:13 PM
agumaRe:is our work useless
No its ok I quit anyway.		2010-07-084:13 PM
HorvatMRe:is our work useless
Jason, please check your email.		2010-07-098:45 AM
DickRe:is our work useless
DOS still has some modern uses for the reason that it is better (or more practical) then the modern technology.  DOS is very low level which means a DOS user can easily access all ports, all memory which modern 32bit OSes make difficult in order to achieve a multi tasking and multi user environment.  So DOS still remains the best choice for things like industrial controllers and what not.		2010-07-116:07 PM
ksrRe:is our work useless
In fact in industrial applications embedded systems are your best choice and always have been. DOS just isn't fit for purpose anymore. The only place I know of where its use is still widespread is in point of sale systems.		2010-07-129:07 AM
JFKRe:is our work useless
Take My FreeDOS distro "Doscore" and our GUI Aura.. we dont plan to take pover the world with DOS... bill gates won that war (so to speak) We dont plan to make a light weight gui with internet applications for Embedded systems... Linux holds that area fairly tight and good too.. but in my spare time i like to dip back into the world of DOS as i was raised on it...and lame gui's like win3.1.. for the most part dos hobbyiest are NERDS. i am a nerd. i make doscore or self satisfaction and i put it on the net for those who share a common interest. i get emails from people who visit my website and youtube videos commenting and expressing common interest in this hobby and encouragment on my project. we have been approached by several individuals and companies expressing interest in the distribution and i tell them its a hobby. i dont spend 24/7 developing... to start a thread flamming at a group of enthusiests is pretty lame man.		2010-07-144:14 AM
pharoahRe:is our work useless
Also, where does it end? You could make a monitor and GUI for an Altair. You could make a computer out of levers and sticks. You could do calculations yourself and use your mind as the monitor. In fact, you could stop using computers altogether and live in a cave. "How low can you go" I'd like to add something, if I may, because it seems that you're missing the whole point. The point is to challenge yourself by setting artificial limitations. Your question is like asking "Why is a haiku only 17 syllables... how far are you willing to go? A one syllabel poem? A blank page? Why noit stop using langauge altogether." I don't pretend to be a very creative person, but I still like to use what little creativity I have in my hobbies. Sometimes working in an inconvenient language or on an outdated platform helps me to think up ideas of what I'd like to do.		2010-07-1412:59 PM

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